I was just in Borders today and they had like half a dozen copies.

I was a little surprised that my local comic shop had ordered so many copies until the manager told me they were all returnable, so he didn’t have much to lose by ordering heavy.

We actually ordered fairly heavy too, and sold out in about two days. Pretty cool.

I’ve been to two “big box” bookstores over the last couple of days and haven’t seen copies of the the Plain Janes anywhere. Either it sold out or the bookstores by me aren’t buying into the line…

I was just in Borders today and they had like half a dozen copies.

I was a little surprised that my local comic shop had ordered so many copies until the manager told me they were all returnable, so he didn’t have much to lose by ordering heavy.

I’ve been to two “big box” bookstores over the last couple of days and haven’t seen copies of the the Plain Janes anywhere. Either it sold out or the bookstores by me aren’t buying into the line…

It’s also possible that it released to specialty comics stores first and hasn’t hit bookstores yet. That, and vice versa, happens from time to time.

I do want to point out that online or print reviewers can turn people on to books. It may be that the number is not siginificantly large, but people still do read nad choose to buy or not buy books based on reviews.

I personally have been influenced to look at books I would not have, including Manhunter. And yes, I liked it and I bought the trades and got the new singles.

My point is that the line is targeted toward a certain audience. The positive vibe here indicates that this book and possible future books can cross over to non-targeted audiences.

This is a sign that the book is of high quality or has captured something universal, like Harry Potter or Heathers or Mean Girls or the Spiderman films. Harry Potter was a children’s fantasy book that crossed over to adults and to the mainstream. heathers/Mean Girls were low budget teen comedies that on a smaller level became very popular and Spiderman shows that lots of non-comics reading people will go see a movie if it captures their interest.

I am expressing a hope that this book and future books are successful and open up readers to try new things.

Hopefully we all will take a look at the book and judge for ourselves if it is good.

I must say that the conversation here is quite interesting, however. I enjoyed seeing both Gil’s and Randy’s perspectives.

I thought very hard for a while, and I’m afraid I still fundamentally disagree on the issue of whether the opinions of people who generally like comics and feel that comics are worthwhile on principle can be counted in a case like this. But it’s okay if this is no more than a strong personal feeling which can’t be proven or disproven. Instead, I can explore my specific feelings about Minx a little further.

I guess the point that some have made (that I agree with) is that if the online reviewers who are not the target audience like it, that’s a good sign for Minx. It demonstrates that there’s either a basic level of quality in the book or widespread insanity amongst the reviewing community. (For the record, both are true.

The PR for Minx seems to boil down to: “Girls like reading X (representing the concept of ‘the things girls like reading’). And there clearly isn’t enough X in our comics, seeing as how we don’t think girls buy our comics. So here, we are launching a line dedicated to providing X in comics. Love us.”

It might sound pessimistic, but my view is: this is nothing to do with supplying X for girls, because the fact that girls are already reading it in manga or in text fiction or watching it on TV or in the movies suggests that there is a big demand for it which is already being satisfied by other media. The reason Minx exists is so DC can attempt to grab a slice of that very, very big expenditure on X in all its forms.

Well, sure. It’s a business. DC would be stupid not to go after a market that clearly exists. But I think you’re making a mistake to lump in manga with prose, TV and movies. Manga is *much* closer to comics (in fact, they *are* comics, more or less) and if there’s a market for that, that makes more sense than DC aiming an imprint at girls because market research has shown that they like, say, One Tree Hill.

I think that what I, and others, are lauding is not “Yay, finally comics for girls!” but maybe that DC, one of the big two in the direct market, is reaching outside their usual fanbase and doing it in such a way that they have quality creators and interesting premises. It’s a good sign of a potentially healthy future for a niche company, and it’s also just kind of nice to see good comics, whoever they’re aimed at.

That’s why I feel a little uncomfortable at the thought of supporting Minx on principle, and I feel that’s kind of how it’s being marketed to the comics community online. I support the principle of supplying good X. I just couldn’t care less how X is delivered to the customer, and for the most part, neither could customers. I don’t really know anyone who says, “I wish I could get more of but it must come to me as a comic, because I don’t read books or watch TV or movies.”

I guess I’m having trouble figuring out why your support of Minx should involve any given principles. It’s not like DC is trying to muscle other media out of the market. The goal of Minx isn’t to get kids to stop watching teen dramas on TV and read them in comics. It’s to get a mostly untapped demographic reading comics, which is a laudable goal for those of us who like comics and would like to see their appeal broadened, so that the medium can maybe stick around longer.

But I’ve seen the target audience for Minx broadly defined as ‘girls who read manga’, so this seems like one case where a dislike of the comics medium doesn’t actually have anything to do with it. They just don’t buy DC comics, damn the little minxes!

Actually, I don’t think that the ‘girls who read manga’ have any particular like of the comics medium. There’s a strong argument to be made that the girls who read manga don’t read any other comics, don’t even consider what they’re reading to be the same type of thing as the manga they enjoy. If Minx can blur that line, cross that barrier, in the same way that Oni Press’ books or Tokyopop’s Global Manga does, well, that’s more girls reading comics.

I’m not trying to drag the discussion back to the old chestnut of whether comics are an art form. They are. It’s just, like all art forms, they do some things well, and some things they do not so well. It may be a question of whether what they can do well can be defined as the extraordinary things, the spectacular things, the things which can’t possibly be done in any other form because of budget limitations. For the ‘mundane’ stories which people also love: well, maybe books and TV are good enough for that, and the comics format actually gets in the way.

Here is where we completely part company. I’ll admit that comics do the big slam-bang action stuff well (although at this point, many of the successful action comics are just ripping off the cinematic tricks of big budget action movies), but I don’t think that means they should steer clear of ‘mundane’ stories. The comics medium is a terrific tool for storytelling, regardless of the genre or tone. One need only look at the work of Adrian Tomine, Eric Shanower, Will Eisner, etc. to see that human drama can be perfectly moving and beautifully done in comics, in many cases better than such things can be done in TV, prose, movies, etc.

Companies occasionally do things which will *probably* lose money, for the purposes of good PR. If the ’second chance’ turns out to make money after all, then that’s a bonus. But the long-term win is that they get to look like the company that cares. We can check in after the Manhunter relaunch to see what happens.

This is a reasonable point, but I guess I see it as beside the point. Whether or not Manhunter gets an extra six issues, an extra year or a sales bump that allows it to continue indefinitely, the fact of the matter is that online buzz is the reason it got any sort of extra time to make an impression. It gives the creators name recognition for their next project, and makes the character likely to stick around somewhere else in the DC Universe and become a hit later on. Buzz is not easily and directly translatable to sales, but neither is it something that the companies can completely ignore. The point I was making is that saying how little online reviews matter, while true, is worth being tempered with the notion that occasionally, there are small victories. And building buzz, however small a part it plays, is occasionally something worthwhile.

I thought very hard for a while, and I’m afraid I still fundamentally disagree on the issue of whether the opinions of people who generally like comics and feel that comics are worthwhile on principle can be counted in a case like this. But it’s okay if this is no more than a strong personal feeling which can’t be proven or disproven. Instead, I can explore my specific feelings about Minx a little further.

The PR for Minx seems to boil down to: “Girls like reading X (representing the concept of ‘the things girls like reading’). And there clearly isn’t enough X in our comics, seeing as how we don’t think girls buy our comics. So here, we are launching a line dedicated to providing X in comics. Love us.”

It might sound pessimistic, but my view is: this is nothing to do with supplying X for girls, because the fact that girls are already reading it in manga or in text fiction or watching it on TV or in the movies suggests that there is a big demand for it which is already being satisfied by other media. The reason Minx exists is so DC can attempt to grab a slice of that very, very big expenditure on X in all its forms.

If DC is saying that there are no cool, sassy, role-model-worthy characters for girls to admire and intelligent, emotionally-involving, well-told, believable stories for them to read in comics, that’s one thing. But this is not a media-wide shortage.

That’s why I feel a little uncomfortable at the thought of supporting Minx on principle, and I feel that’s kind of how it’s being marketed to the comics community online. I support the principle of supplying good X. I just couldn’t care less how X is delivered to the customer, and for the most part, neither could customers. I don’t really know anyone who says, “I wish I could get more of but it must come to me as a comic, because I don’t read books or watch TV or movies.”

Granted, I do know plenty of people who say “My X should ideally not come as a comic, because I don’t like comics”, and if the point is that a Minx product or two will persuade them that maybe they do ‘like comics’, then that’s great - they’ll have a few more works of art they can appreciate because they no longer discriminate against a medium on principle. But I’ve seen the target audience for Minx broadly defined as ‘girls who read manga’, so this seems like one case where a dislike of the comics medium doesn’t actually have anything to do with it. They just don’t buy DC comics, damn the little minxes!

I’m not trying to drag the discussion back to the old chestnut of whether comics are an art form. They are. It’s just, like all art forms, they do some things well, and some things they do not so well. It may be a question of whether what they can do well can be defined as the extraordinary things, the spectacular things, the things which can’t possibly be done in any other form because of budget limitations. For the ‘mundane’ stories which people also love: well, maybe books and TV are good enough for that, and the comics format actually gets in the way.

It’s not specifically related to Minx, and I feel guilty for potentially derailing the conversation, so I’m happy to take it to email… but re Manhunter: an active campaign has earned it a five-issue extension and a relaunch after the current hiatus. But the sales figures posted over at The Beat suggest that sales spiked for the first ‘extra’ issue - everyone likes a guest appearance by Wonder Woman - but then flumped pretty much back to their previous level. This doesn’t bode well. And another example I can point to right now is Spider-Girl. People went nuts about the need to save it. I barely ever read a bad review of it. So Marvel relaunched it and pushed it, and after eight months it’s back to the same sales levels. I tried reading it both before and after the relaunch. Detested it both times. Oh well.

Companies occasionally do things which will *probably* lose money, for the purposes of good PR. If the ’second chance’ turns out to make money after all, then that’s a bonus. But the long-term win is that they get to look like the company that cares. We can check in after the Manhunter relaunch to see what happens.

~ Gil

It’s true that online reviews (or any reviews, print or otherwise) don’t have that much of an effect. Bad reviews generally don’t tank a book, good reviews don’t make it a bestseller.

However, you undercut your point by using the Manhunter example. Do you honestly believe that, if it weren’t for the constant loud buzz from reviewers (both online and in print) that DC would continue to renew this low-selling series? Buzz doesn’t translate to sales quickly, but it can in the long run. That’s why buzz books with low sales get to continue past issue six, while books with low sales and no talk about them don’t ever get there.

So no, the positive reviews for Minx online don’t necessarily mean that it’s going to do fantastically well or anything. But the fact that a lot of the reviewers, who are not, as Lauren points out, the target audience, *do* like it is potentially significant. It’s an early positive indicator that the books are, at least in the minds of several folks who have read them, any good. And isn’t that one of the important factors in whether or not a new line succeeds or not?

Now, that said, it’ll be nice if teenage girls like this story, in that it will be one more thing that they can like. But it won’t really be important if they don’t like it and the Minx line fails for the lack of their support. There are plenty of things for girls to read or watch outside of this small number of targeted graphic novels, and indeed outside of comics in general. If they aren’t interested in these comics despite being told they should be, well, unlucky for DC, but I’m sure teenage girldom will survive.

~ Gil

I also appreciated that the story was set in a fictional city (and am in agreement with Dan). It certainly evoked 9/11, which was fine, but setting it in the real world would have taken me too much out of the story as well.

The book does suffer a bit from a lack of specificity which results in lost realism. I wish that Castellucci had set the story around 9-11 New York and a real suburb on the East Coast rather than the fictional Metro City which had suffered a theoretical bomb attack. It feels kind of fake, and that takes away from the importance of establishing the fear of Jane and her parents and the trauma of what happens to them. Plain Janes is a post-9-11 book about the importance of art, the dangers of fear-mongering authority and the differences between suburban and urban life, but all of these themes would have much more strength if they were grounded in the real.

I disagree with you on this, Randy. I was actually glad to see it not set in New York or involving 9/11. By not tying it to 9/11, which has a very specific connotation for readers, Castellucci keeps the point open enough that anyone who has had a frightening/horrific experience can relate. Using 9/11 would have made it just another story of reactions to that specific event, while having a generic bombing lets it be its own thing. I also didn’t feel that not setting it in New York was an issue, as the point was the people and their experiences, not where it happened. I don’t need a real city to make me feel like what’s happening has meaning, I need sincerity in the writing and art, and both Castellucci and Rugg delivered on that. The fear that Jane and her parents felt was real on the page, and I didn’t need a real-life event to make it feel that way. There are plenty of other things that happen every day that are frightening and horrible besides just 9/11.

The increasing boldness of it, and the frustration and cracking down of the authority figures, reminded me of the Christian Slater movie Pump Up The Volume.

Yup, The Plain Janes is the Pump Up the Volume for the new generation.

Actually, I rather like the comparison. Might just be because I also liked the movie, but it works.

As for the ending…I liked the ambiguousness of it. I didn’t think that everything needed to be tied up in a nice red bow and explained. And actually, for me, for some reason it truly felt as if it was in spirit with the rest of the story, so it didn’t seem quick or out of the ordinary. Like all comics, there could have been some additions and subtractions that could have made the book better, but for me, it was a really good read as is with some exceptional art by Rugg.

However… when I got about halfway in, I became pretty much engaged. The “art attacks” are the most interesting element of the books, as the Janes find new and creative ways to make interesting, visual statements with art. I’m no fan of performance art in general, but if more of it were whimsical and fun like the work in Plain Janes, I think might be a bigger fan of the form. The increasing boldness of it, and the frustration and cracking down of the authority figures, reminded me of the Christian Slater movie Pump Up The Volume. I should say that when I saw that movie, I liked it, so that’s meant as a compliment, even if there’s cheese in the movie (and some cheesy elements to Plain Janes as well).

The book does suffer a bit from a lack of specificity which results in lost realism. I wish that Castellucci had set the story around 9-11 New York and a real suburb on the East Coast rather than the fictional Metro City which had suffered a theoretical bomb attack. It feels kind of fake, and that takes away from the importance of establishing the fear of Jane and her parents and the trauma of what happens to them. Plain Janes is a post-9-11 book about the importance of art, the dangers of fear-mongering authority and the differences between suburban and urban life, but all of these themes would have much more strength if they were grounded in the real.

Jim Rugg’s art, of course, is worth the price of admission all by itself. His Street Angel work was stronger, in my opinion, but that may just be because the subject matter there held more intrinsic interest. At any rate, Plain Janes, whatever flaws it has, is definitely a gorgeous looking book.

All in all, it’s an interesting first book from Minx, if not necessarily the home run I might have hoped for. And KB, I did think the ending was a bit abrupt, as it seemed like Castellucci was building to something with “Main Jane” and her two beaus and then just sort of left an ambiguous ending that I thought the mostly straightforward narrative hadn’t really earned, but I didn’t think it was terrible by any means.

Primal stories resonate. That’s why they are used. If you think that search for companionship and the fear that accompanies it aren’t primal, think again.

Completely agree with you Dan. I’ve hear before that there are no new stories any more. Only new twists on classic tales and new combinations of classic story elements. I think the Plain Janes has a little of both and tells a very good story. Glad to see you liked it Nick. It hasn’t received universal praise in the blogosphere which surprised me (I’ve heard complaints particularly about the ending–but these readers clearly did not get the point of the story, IMHO). I thought it was excellent.

so, is there anything original about this book?
someone leaves somewhere and starts over somewhere else. that someone is ‘different’ (art geek) and needs to find new friends, needs to cope with the new environment…

now, why does that sound very familar? haven’t we seen this story a million times? even tv soaps stopped using that scheme, it’s so damn overused.

we even get the omnipresent terrorist attack stuff. wow.

just wondering,

b

Primal stories resonate. That’s why they are used. If you think that search for companionship and the fear that accompanies it aren’t primal, think again.