Comic Pants Podcast #37
It’s the flip side of last week’s podcast, as Dave M., Randy and Nick take a long look at how the DC Universe is faring these days. Did 52 wrap strong? What’s the skinny on Countdown and Sinestro Corps? And is the upcoming Final Crisis something to be anticipated, feared or merely yawned at?
As always, commentary is welcomed and encouraged. Let us know what you thought of the podcast, and if you have suggestions for future podcast topics, leave us a comment or write in to the show! Please drop us a line to give us some questions or comments for the next show.
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You really don’t like the DCU do you?
I have to admit whilst I’m still enjoying my DC reading generally (though I’m reading a lot fewer titles), the fervour which I had for DC in the leadup to Infinite Crisis (and 52) has evaporated somewhat. Its actually added to my waning enthusiasm for comics. Now I’m lucky to get into my comics store once a month compared to then when I was in every week without fail.
And I don’t neccesarily think that ‘bad’ writing is my problem as much as I’m weary of the grand epic story that started with Indentity Crisis.
DC does seem to be in an impossible spot. Given the nature of the comics production business, its not like they can just cancel Countdown.
Randy: regarding your comments about how DC lost you (perhaps forever) with Identity Crisis. I know how you feel…same thing happened to me with Marvel with Avengers Disassembled (She-Hulk being the only book I’ve been able to read consistently since). Which burns me doubly because of my childhood of being Marvel only (well aside from the DC D&D books).
18 Sep 2007 at 3:06 am
QuoteOn Death of the New Gods:
This is such a terrible, illogical idea that there HAS to be a catch. These characters are revered by many, many people and there HAS to be some kind of twist ending or some crazy follow-up. There is no way that it just ends with the fourth world just dying, the end. Something has to happen.
The thing is, you can’t just keep that a secret. You can’t just try and let people assume you are making an ass-backwards move. The pay off isn’t worth it.
18 Sep 2007 at 3:16 am
QuoteI have to say that I also think the Death of the New Gods is a false alarm. They’re probably going to try to just do something new again.
But there’s no denying that DC is trying to hype the ridiculous hell out of this. They’re going for senseless shock value here.
18 Sep 2007 at 3:56 am
QuoteYou make tons of great points that are real concerns that DC must consider. However, I feel their biggest problem is their definition of a success.
You and I probably decide success in one of two ways a) is the book good compared to the rest of the market and b) does the book sell well compared to the rest of the market. However, both Marvel and DC (more so) decide success by the money spent to make/market the book against the how much it sells. Blue Beetle, while not selling gang busters, when compared to the DC bottom line, is a success. The money being spent for the artists & writers for Countdown must be turning a profit based on the sales for Didio make such a claim.
The Mary Marvel stuff is the only thing I disagree about. She was, essentially, a niche, c-level character at best, that did not have tons of fans (though I am one) that Dini et al is trying something different with. Do I think she will return to the Mary of old? That would be nice, but I don’t think putting her in a black costume and making her angry/irrational does not make her a cheesecake character.
The December solicits for Death of the New Gods shows a change for Mr. Miracle, so maybe the death is a rebirth. Or another Crisis.
18 Sep 2007 at 6:28 am
QuoteOn the contrary. I have a lot of love for the DCU, or at least a lot of the characters in it. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t care how badly it’s being screwed up in so many ways.
As with Marvel, a lot of my love for the DCU is in the smaller corners, where characters like Manhunter, Chase, Starman, Hitman and Suicide Squad live. I do probably have more of a connection with Marvel’s big characters like the Avengers, Spider-Man and the X-Men than the Justice League, Superman and Batman, but I’ve got all those guys in my collection as well.
Avengers Disassembled lost me (probably forever) from reading Bendis books, and thus Avengers while he’s in control of the line, but it didn’t put me off Marvel. It wasn’t as line-wide as Identity Crisis, which might have been about the Justice League but really dragged in just about every character by going back and retconning the ’70s league and thus polluting a cross-pollinated section of characters that makes up a huge chunk of the DCU. You can ignore the events of Disassembled by merely cutting out reading the X-Men and Avengers titles.
Civil War was closer to putting me off Marvel for good, but I thought the follow-up on The Initiative was good enough to win me back. There has been no such follow-up to Identity Crisis… even 52, which I mostly enjoyed, carried some of the unpleasant taint of Meltzer’s abhorrent miniseries.
You’re right. And I’ve seen fans make the defense online that Didio is doing a good job, if you compare DC’s sales now to DC’s sales a few years ago. Except that DC’s competition isn’t it’s past self, it’s competition is Marvel, and their competition is spanking the hell out of them in terms of sales and buzz. DC’s big win is in the area of diversity, but while I applaud that, I don’t think that anyone would deny that a healthy superhero universe is key to DC’s place in the direct market.
No, but the way they’re drawing her sure does. The skirt seems to get shorter with each appearance, and there can be no doubt that they’re doing a “good girl goes bad” story, which carries with it all kinds of sensual implications.
18 Sep 2007 at 11:33 am
QuoteThere was a period pre Civil War when Marvel were Disassembling the Avengers and doing House of M, making Gwen have sex with Norman and having their X-Books in a mess.
At this time, DC were doing stuff like Geoff Johns on Flash. Geoff Johns on Teen Titans. Geoff Johns on JSA. Green Arrow was pretty good as was Outsiders. They had Identity Crisis (which I really enjoyed) and they rebirthed Green Lantern.
The Bat books weren’t too good on the whole after Hush but on the whole there were a lot of good books that were telling good stories.
Then INFINITE CRISIS came. Sure, there were things building upto it all the time but when it finally came… there were too many books leading upto it. They made it 100% for the old-school fans and brought in a lot of stuff that only old-school DC fans would get.
I liked the idea that the Multiverse was something that existed once and that was got rid of in the original Crisis. It sounded like a bad idea to begin with and for some reason they brought it back and it confuses the hell out of me.
52 held no interest for me. I had no idea who those characters were for the best part and so I left it alone. I tried the OYL books but they seemed so disjointed from each other that I didn’t get onboard with that either.
So now I have 0 DCU books on my pull list. They’ve relaunched Green Arrow but are keeping the same writer. The only change is that he’s married? Pointless relaunch. Same goes for Outsiders.
Flash was getting good with Marc Guggenheim and then that came to a screaching end. The return of Wally is smeared in the crap that was Infinite Crisis and is really not interesting. I don’t think even Waid can save that idea.
Recently it just seems that Countdown is overflowing into places that it shouldn’t. They’re doing Spin Offs with characters who are only familar to those who read DC many moons ago.
The whole universe is a mess. Does the company not realise that when you make your B and C and D list characters the focus of your line, that the line will suffer.
And when you’re pulling shit like having the final part of the Johns/Donner Superman arc be told in an Annual??? And you do the same with Wonder Woman? And you do a similar thing with Superman Confidential…. what on Earth do they expect?
How can Johns/Donner have a new issue out (the recent Bizzaro issue) when their original arc isn’t yet finished?
Their publishing schedule beggars belief.
Wake up DC. You suck currently.
18 Sep 2007 at 11:35 am
QuoteThe argument can be made (not by me) that the DC superhero universe is strong, with JLA & JSA at the top of the DC sales charts. In my perfect world, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman would not only have great talents putting out a quality on time product but for them to be accessible to anyone and the top selling DC books. It boggles my mind the pillaging done on Spider-Man (story wise) but still sells great.
I certainly hope the Countdown writers/editors logic in Mary’s arc is not some sort of sexual awakening of a previously innocent character. I still hold fast, foolishly perhaps, that we will see a strong Mary when it’s all said and done.
18 Sep 2007 at 11:54 am
QuoteI would love to subject Randy to a psychiatric word association games consisting entirely of publishing company names.
“Top Cow.”
“Angst-sluts.”
“Avatar.”
“Ew.”
“Wildstorm.”
“Reboot.”
18 Sep 2007 at 12:32 pm
QuoteAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Whew. Thanks, you just made my day. That was right on target, too.
18 Sep 2007 at 2:00 pm
QuoteI forget where I read it but Jim Starlin really didn’t want to use this title and wanted to use something like “the Trials of…” or something along those lines. He says Didio insisted that it must be titled “Death of…” so yeah, its just another really bad marketing ploy by DC.
I think its truly unfair that you would have to buy all the tie-ins to know what is going on in Countdown. It alienates me as a customer and it turned me off completely from this crossover.
18 Sep 2007 at 3:00 pm
QuoteI could point to about 15-ish DC books (that’s not including Vertigo) that i’m enjoying right now, stuff like Green Lantern, Flash, Checkmate, the Brave and the Bold, Batman, JSA, etc.
Up until last week I was reading Countdown but I can’t justify buying it anymore. It’s not that interesting, too damn many tie ins, i’m all for a weekly book, but DC dropped the ball on this one.
I’m probably a lot more forgiving than most readers, I gave it 19 issues and guess what? It didn’t get better, it was the one book I was reading not for enjoyment, but to keep up in case something important happens. Who knows, maybe the next 30 something issues will turn it around and be interesting.
18 Sep 2007 at 3:24 pm
Quote1. I’M getting Death of New Gods becuse of Starlin. And no I really Don’t like the New Gods much so I guess i’m the target for that.
2. I agree shaking the status up too much leads not caring about a series long term. Jimmy OLsoen can only change into so many mosters before you get tired of him drinking alien soda.
18 Sep 2007 at 3:49 pm
QuoteSince the Panteon’s in the know, I’ve got a question regarding DC’s sales: how’re their trade paperbacks and hardcovers selling? I’m asking because one thing I’ve considered Marvel to always kick DC’s ass in is in its collection program. Marvel seems to get stuff traded much faster and more efficiently. Also, when we see a Marvel Premiere HC, we know the softcover’s coming just a few months later, but with DC it can take over a year AFTER the hardcover is released for a softcover to come out, Infinite Crisis and Identity Crisis being the prime examples.
Also, with Marvel Hardcovers, outside of its Premiere line, you just seem to get much more bang for your buck. They’ve put out a lot of hardcovers for their series collecting at least two trades’ worth in each. The Annihilation hardcovers (which I readily bought despite rarely picking up HCs) had at least nine, at most 12 issues worth of stories in them, plus all the snazzy Nova Corps files. The Planet Hulk HC had something in the neighborhood of 16 issues, and it was all one great big story, which was awesome.
Now, look at DC’s collection of the Sinestro Corps; the first hardcover volume is coming out February, and it’s only collecting the first five issues of the event (two months’ worth from GL and GLC, plus the special). There’s no word of any extra material, either. And it’s a hardcover, so those wanting to pick up this hugely-talked about event will have to give up extra money with the story stretched out over several HCs. Is that a turnoff or what? Consider also that since it’s coming out February, it might be in competition with Marvel’s Annihilation: Conquest HCs. If the Conquest HCs are collected similarly to the first Annihilation HCs and come out close to the same time as the Sinestro HCs, well, then a fan looking to get into the space opera comics will go with Conquest since each book gets you more story.
Oh, and I know DC’s got the Absolute Editions and they’re incredibly. But really, they’re a luxury purchase and the average comic fan will only buy one every once in a blue moon.
18 Sep 2007 at 5:17 pm
QuoteI think the Panteon pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding DC’s problems. My theory is that a couple of other factors are also to blame:
1.) DC has no idea how to do high concept storytelling. As much as I hated Civil War, at least it had a plot that I could’ve explained to someone who didn’t read comics. DC seems to think you can just throw half a dozen (apparently) unrelated plot threads together and call it a story. Is Countdown about the Monitors? Is it about Eclipso turning Mary Marvel into her lesbian love slave? Is it about Jimmy Olsen turning into a super-freak? Who knows at this point.
2.) You can only go to the weekly series well for so long before it runs dry. Getting people on board for a year long weekly series is one thing. Getting them to go for a weekly series that goes on indefinitely is another. DC has already hinted that another weekly series will follow Countdown. How long before even the die hard fans give up?
Unfortunately, I think DC has screwed itself in the short term. They would never live it down if they cancelled Countdown and I doubt any dramatic change in the creative direction of the series would even be noticed at this point. No one is going to start collecting Countdown with issue 25.
18 Sep 2007 at 5:23 pm
Quotei’m listening to the podcast now and i want to say while i prefer DC to marvel, as i’m just apathetic to marvel, i am really angry at about half the things they’re doing. i think if final crisis is bad, i’m just going to stop buying superhero comics for a while and buy alternative titles and manga.
18 Sep 2007 at 7:14 pm
QuoteFirst of all, I really enjoyed this podcast and agreed with the comments made.
I am a long time DC reader (25+ years) and I am just burned out. I preorder my comics two months in advance and consider myself somewhat of a completist, and I just dropped Countdown!
I currently preorder Detective Comics when Dini writes it, Booster Gold, Green Lantern, Jonah Hex, Justice League, Justice Society, Midnighter and Y the Last Man. That’s it. I can’t preorder the Superman titles because DC keeps messing up the shipping schedule and who knows what is going to be in any issue when it comes out. All-Star series come out whenever the creators grace us with their work, and don’t get me started on Wildstorm.
I’m currently taking a wait and see attitude on all of the other product DC puts out. DC is so haphazard, it’s ridiculous. There are just too many mini-series flowing out from Brave New World, 52, and Countdown that I just don’t care about.
Moreover, reading comics should be fun. And it’s becoming a chore now.
19 Sep 2007 at 9:01 am
QuoteI’ve steered clear of pretty much everything COUNTDOWN /CRISIS-related and I’m reading a lot more DC than Marvel at the moment. DC’s got a lot of quality that’s not too event-related. At Marvel everything seems to be INITIATIVE or WORLD WAR HULK.
19 Sep 2007 at 10:21 am
QuoteI guess I will be the only one to comment on the brief break topic. Plus I will be positive (yeah!!!!) My father works in a middle school library, and they have started carrying comics there. Most notably (and obviously) the new Bone trades comming out. Also they have started carrying Naruto which seems to be super popular as well (though why would a ninja be in an orange jumpsuit? That’s just silly, BELIEVE IT!)
The Bone book are always checked out, and my sister (who is an English teacher) has caught several students reading Bone in class. For some reason that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
19 Sep 2007 at 11:44 am
QuoteAs I said elsewhere, I am starting on Morrison’s “Seven Soldiers” trades. I’m not far in but I can already feel that it’s special. I’ve read #0, and first issues of Shining Knight, Manhattan Guardian and Zatanna. It may be helpful that I know that the books do have connections, but as I’m reading them, I am just tickled. This ‘crossover’ seems so light, yet it’s there. In a grand way.. A grand architecture. I am just excited by it.
And then I look at the books on the “New Release” wall and just kinda shudder.. The civil war branding of old.. the 52/countdown to branding of today.. just bleh.
Maybe I don’t like shared universes?
I know I’ve beaten my drum on this enough.. I don’t really like complaining about the big two universes. Cause really, I have lots of comic books to read.
Randy’s note about the DC pattern of fun book to set up shocking ending. Funny how that comment was made before GA/BC Wedding Special and then reiterated in his Wednesday #1 review of that issue. It’s not really depressing.. it’s just comics.. but it’s kinda just a let down.. people popping my balloons. I like balloons.
20 Sep 2007 at 9:12 am
QuoteI am a DC enthuisiast…and I gotta say they have screwed up bad. Their are some bright spots but countdown has been a major failure. I suppose their is a chance it might get good..but outlook is bleak. With that said I am sure they must be realizing this and are rectifying it for next year. YA infinite crisis wasn’t very good but I think Final Crisis is going to fix alot of stuff. I have no real reasoning for this except that grant morrison and j.g jones are doing it. Perhaps its just that I am an idealist and want to DC to get back in shape. I think after final crisis that DC should stop these major events for a few years and just concentrate on the core titles (this can go fro marvel as well).
20 Sep 2007 at 5:05 pm
Quotei got BURNED by dc - i started collecting in 2000, aged eleven and was only picking up marvel books. then my friend described in ridiculous detail what had happened so far in Hush so i picked it up, whatever you think about it - i enjoyed it, a lot of people did. so i follow jim lee to superman: it sucks. the follow up to hush? sucks. i cool off for a bit (picking up some superman/batman cos mcguinness is cool). other than that i stay away until i hear infinite crisis is a must read. i wait and read it all at once after collecting the issues and i have to say: it is the least comprehensible most convoluted, self-referential, poorly written, inconsistently drawn book i have ever laid my hands on and it did nothing to warm me to the dc universe as i hoped it would. i have no love for its minor characters at all
that said i’m collecting more dc that i have for a while, but only superman and batman. i’ll never pick up a crossover from them again, unless i love the creator (that’s YOU darwyn cooke)
21 Sep 2007 at 1:52 pm
Quote