Comic Pants Podcast #45
After a short break, Dave Farabee, Dan Grendell, Nick Budd, David Martindale (D3), and Randy Lander are back, and this time out we’re taking on something that might be a little controversial: Diversity in comics. We talk about the racial, religious, gender-based and sexual identity diversity in comics and ask: Is diversity necessary? How is it being done well? How is it being done badly? If it’s broken, how do we fix it? The focus is on superheroes, but we travel a bit afield and talk about creators and editorial as well as the diversity of the indy market.
As always, commentary is welcomed and encouraged. Let us know what you thought of the podcast, and if you have suggestions for future podcast topics, leave us a comment or write in to the show! Please drop us a line to give us some questions or comments for the next show.
Use the podcast feed buttons on the sidebar to subscribe, listen via the flash player below, or directly download the MP3 here:
Yo guys,
I do believe I may have been the listener you mentioned that does not like the word “Retard” if im NOT the one you now have two. But worry not. If I was going to fight evey use of retard i’d never sleep. Besides it’s all about context.
You guys CAN’T bother me as JQ or Bendis using it. Man talk about a ” boys club
but not to rag on Marvel without ragging on DC I thought making a female Robin just to kill her felt wrong and very boys cluby.
03 Dec 2007 at 11:11 pm
QuoteYou were indeed who I was thinking of, Rob. It’s a habit I’m in that I’m trying to shake anyway, but I haven’t quite gotten there yet.
03 Dec 2007 at 11:46 pm
Quoteworry not i’m trying not to call pepole normals any more and MAN alive you wanna talk lifelong habbit…When I was in hanicap (disabled…whatever school) 31 years we talked about “NORMAL School (teachers too by the way.)
04 Dec 2007 at 12:01 am
QuoteSweet podcast as always guys. Thanks. And I’m with you guys when it comes to the whole female characters thing. People want comics to have a bigger readership, and you don’t get it by having Witchblade’s thong-clad ass being the first thing a female reader sees when she sets foot in a comic shop. Look, I’m no prude. There’s plenty of books and magazines that are excellent for wanking, and if you want ‘em, have ‘em. I say rock on. But you know what I don’t need? Stupid ass shots and posing pulling me right out of a story I’m trying to get into.
On an aside, I’ll point out that the current Mr. Terrific is an outspoken atheist (Even though he’s seen DCU God. I think he gives an explanation somewhere). It’s pretty cool, since a lot of times writers tend to automatically make black characters religious.
04 Dec 2007 at 12:09 am
QuoteMore atheist superheroes (and a bunch of believers as well):
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html#At
I’ve seen more than a few sites postulating on superhero religions and a lot of ‘em employ fuzzy logic. The linked page seems pretty good at a glance, though. It looks for actually stories that support its guesses and, honestly, you’ve gotta respect a page that acknowledges the much-persecuted Subterranean Lava Men religion.
04 Dec 2007 at 1:56 am
QuoteJust curious, will this be a podcast for the next two weeks or are we getting one next week too?
04 Dec 2007 at 3:22 am
QuoteOn “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t” in regards to making characters more cultured/more stereotyped:
Sometimes it is indeed a matter of needing skill to balance it out properly. Sometimes, it’s just that we need more characters that feature a variety of personalities.
For example, I know every Asian person doesn’t think about their ethnicity all the time. I know they don’t eat cultural food all the time and speak their native tongue etc. etc. But some of them do, and characters need to reflect that. So there can be some that are more “cultured”, and some that are “white washed.” Diversity in ethnicity, and then diversity in personality.
More replies as I listen to this podcast! You guys are awesome. I love race relations stuff. You’d be amazed at how little people understand.
04 Dec 2007 at 3:37 am
QuoteInteresting topic, guys. It is a weird coincidence that I had just finished reading Adrian Tomine’s new book “Shortcomings” which is about an Asian-American and his Asian-American girlfriend and how they view themselves in America. It is a really good book and I would say that this would qualify for the Diversity Done Well category. It contains much of the interests which you’ve been discussing.
In a documentary, Denny O’neil said feminists were angry when he changed Wonder Woman’s costume from the original into the rediculous white kung-fu suit, most notably for taking away what makes her so recognizable. He stated that the women complaining believed Wonder Woman to be a one true American pop icon for empowering young girls.
To me, the greatest thing about comics more than any other visual medium, is the limitless bounds of imagination. As a culture we lose so much when we are bogged down with self-conscious perceptions of white characters, black characters, gay characters, etc. It is only the writers and artists who write really bad stories unto which these scenarios become problems. The Kree are blue, Skrulls are green, Sinestro is pink, Hank Henshaw is a cyborg, and it seldomly occurs to me to think about these characters on this premise. Comics need writers who display all walks of life with equal gusto and they will fail every time if they don’t.
Sorry I am all over the place.
04 Dec 2007 at 7:26 am
QuoteHere I am only 5 minutes into the podcast and already commenting.
1) You sound quality has really improved. Is is just the levelator or are you using different mics?
2) “No Hobos in Comics!” should be your next T-shirt. Maybe one of you can whip up a good image of a sad hobo clown and then put a big circle with a line through it on top of it.
04 Dec 2007 at 9:22 am
QuoteJust starting to listen. My last name has a long ‘a’ and a hard ‘g’. Like reagan without the “r” sound. The name is scandanavian, so it’s actually short ‘a’ with hard ‘g’.. but when they came over in the boat, it changed.
I thought much too much about that. Back to work.. and listening.
04 Dec 2007 at 9:27 am
QuoteQuick note - I believe Phat and Vivesector were a couple - but of course X-Statix was a totally different kind of comic.
04 Dec 2007 at 9:31 am
Quote…Ok 12 minutes into the podcast, and I have some more comments -
I thought it was revealed that the Captain American super soldier project had Nazi origins. I thought that the Red Skull was behind the whole project, or maybe the idea of the project was taken from Nazi technology. I’m not sure which issue I read this, but I had this sense the idea had been around in awhile.
Other things - Comics do have a real rich history of perpetuating stereotypes, and I think a lot of the diversity of the present needs to be there just to make up for past sins (see early Spirit comics and cringe/cry). I am reminded of a Stan Lee interview on NPR’s Fresh Air where he pats himself on the back for being so progressive by introducing a homosexual character into comics, and then describes the character as always wearing purple and being British and being afraid of getting dirty. (here’s the link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1144434).
Also, not having finished listening to the podcast, have you mentioned the way people project onto anthropomorphic characters. I remember Elvis Mitchell talking about how every black man in America related to The Thing, and how with the Fantastic Four movie making Alicia Masters black just underlined that feeling (link here: http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/tt/tt050713tim_story).
04 Dec 2007 at 9:42 am
QuoteJust over the one-hour mark, and I have a question - Has there ever been a rape story where a male character gets raped? The only thing that comes to mind is Brat Pack, but that is a completely different sort of comic.
But seriously, wouldn’t that be a great New Avengers arc where Ms. Marvel or Tigra has to avenge the rape of Iron Man or something like that? Now every Newsarama commentator who claims, “You are raping my childhood!” will finally be justified.
04 Dec 2007 at 10:32 am
QuoteGreat podcast, guys, although I do think you are letting the industry off the hook a little bit too quickly and easily at the end by concluding that there are not more female and not more gay/lesbian superheroes because the universes are too crowded, and such heroes wouldn’t sell. Perhaps the core reason they have not sold is that they haven’t yet been written well. I think creators should be challenged to come up with well-written characters, for whom sexual orientation and gender are not defining characteristics. I.E., no one should set out to create “the great gay [or fill in the blank] superhero” — but they should be expected to create a superhero who is great and fun and exciting who happens to be gay (as, to be fair, I think you said earlier in the podcast). J.K. Rowling didn’t set out to create “the great gay wizard” when she wrote Dumbeldore; instead, she created a compelling character who, by the way, happens to be gay.
To excuse, even tacitly, the dearth of such heroes by saying “Well, the universes are too crowded and they don’t sell anyway” is just to give the industry permission to keep on perpetuating stereotypes and keep on putting out what you yourselves call the s**t they are currently producing in these areas.
But it is a good and important discussion, and I’m glad you guys tackled it. Keep up the good work!
04 Dec 2007 at 10:52 am
QuoteCommenting before finishing.. beware. I did hear that Black Canary was the leader of the JLA and that was exciting. I had already dropped BoP for various reasons. I also didn’t read JLA.. however, I did.. unfortunately, read the first issues of Amazons Attack. When the JLA arrived to help, Batman was in charge. Canary did jack all. That’s there new leader? Ugh.
I remember Benes on BoP and noting panels of crotch and butt shots. He is from south america, brazil maybe? In an interview he said how he doesn’t think about it as his culture is full of female behinds. Of course, that’s where the editor would come in.
04 Dec 2007 at 11:39 am
QuoteMarvel looks pretty bad for bringing black golith back just to die
04 Dec 2007 at 12:51 pm
QuoteThere was indeed. Starman. He was raped by the daughter of the Mist - her name escapes me at the moment - so she could bear his son.
04 Dec 2007 at 3:50 pm
Quotethere was also leage of extrodenry gentleman series 2
And I once pitched a story where we find out Joker never raped Barbra Gordon he raped a drugged Clayface. Hey Batman always thinks ahead
04 Dec 2007 at 4:20 pm
QuoteDo any listeners out there feel that Garth Ennis’ stereotypes on gays is way to over the top and unnecessary? I mean, when I read Preacher (which I do love for other reasons), it just seems like it was written by a white male John Wayne fan who uses sodomy far too often for comic effect. I know it’s Ennis, but none of the protagonists are used in this manner- only the villains.
On that note, Ennis’ The Boys has enough male rapings than you can shake a stick at.
In fact, Dynamite should use that as their ad slogan. “The Boys: More male rapings than you can shake a stick at.”
04 Dec 2007 at 4:58 pm
QuoteI think the lack of diversity in comics pretty much boils down to the fact that they’re a dying relic of a bygone era (and I’m saying that as someone who loves comics). I know some people will claim that’s just an excuse, but how many breakout characters have there been in the last 25 years male, white, or otherwise?
I think it’s a bit naïve to take a “build it and they will come” approach to diversity in comics. Let’s face it, the majority of society thinks comics are read exclusively by white, male, nerds. This means that most people who don’t fall into that category will already be leery of reading comics regardless of what the actual content is. Not to mention the fact that even white, male comics readers are a small minority of all white males. Why do people expect that a large percentage of minority or women readers are going to flock to comics for any reason whatsoever? Milestone put out plenty of quality books that featured diverse characters and it still went bust.
Really, I think Marvel and DC are put in a catch-22 position. If they produce books that they know will sell that feature the same old cracker superheroes, they get criticized for lack of diversity. If they put out more diverse characters, the books don’t sell and they get criticized for the characters being token minorities, or white characters in minority skins, or sexually exploitive of women.
I’m not trying to marginalize minority or women readers or imply that diversity isn’t a worthy goal. I’m just pointing out that corporations exist to make money and it’s a bit idealistic IMO to think that everything would be great if they just woke up and tore down the walls of white, male oppression.
04 Dec 2007 at 6:41 pm
QuoteSame thing happened to Oliver Queen in the Mike Grell run of Green Arrow (those sneaky ladies)…also a rather brutal scene involving a minor in the first series of American Flagg.
04 Dec 2007 at 6:59 pm
Quotealso i’ve long thought that the reason you get “black Firestorm instead of “fantasic new Black superhero” is becuse a guy with a great new hero is not dying to feed it to DC
04 Dec 2007 at 7:35 pm
QuoteDidn’t Nightwing also get raped by the Tarantula?
04 Dec 2007 at 7:36 pm
QuoteGood catch. I think I read the story where he explains how he can be an atheist in a universe where the wrath of God is one of his former teammates, but I’d forgotten about it. And it makes sense for the character, and isn’t a defining characteristic. Textbook example of how to do diversity well. In addition, he’s also a black character, but that’s not his defining characteristic either. Nice creation work by John Ostrander and development by Geoff Johns.
That is all down to the whims of the Internet gods (OK, the whims of D3 and when he posts the podcast). There will either be a new podcast (another long one, about an hour and a half) posted next Sunday or the Sunday after, and that’ll probably be the last podcast for 2007.
Just levelator, which is indeed an awesome program. And I am, of course, totally down with a “No Hobos in Comics!” T-Shirt.
One I’d forgotten about, but you’re right, they were a couple. And I liked the way Milligan treated the issue.
Sounds like a really ugly retcon, actually. I can see this being introduced in the ’70s or ’80s or whatever, but it’s still a twist on the origin I don’t like.
All due credit to Darwyn Cooke for taking Ebony White and making him such a cool, interesting character in his all-too-shortlived Spirit revamp.
I hadn’t thought about it, but that’s an interesting point (no surprise, Mitchell’s a great thinker/writer). And it reminds me of one of the great stories Paul Jenkins wrote on Peter Parker, Spider-Man, that we’ve talked about before, where a young black boy is identifying with Spidey because he doesn’t have a color (other than red and blue), and the resulting strong ending of the story.
I don’t know if it’s letting them off the hook so much as recognizing that there are market realities as much as there is any kind of institutionalized racism or bias on the part of the readership. Not denying either of those, but that’s not the *only* reason, at any rate.
I don’t know, there have been some very well-written characters like this who just didn’t catch on. Milestone is a great example, Static and Icon were some of the best-written (and well-illustrated) comics on the stands in the ’90s, but they were too unfamiliar to the readership at large to catch on. There were other factors as well, of course, most notably the *flood* of superhero material and new universes that overwhelmed your average reader and drove them back to the familiar arms of Marvel/DC, but I don’t think bad writing is at fault.
Granted, sometimes it is, but it’s just one of many contributing factors.
I think your points are well-taken, though, and I definitely agree that it should be part of the character, not their defining characteristic, or it’s going to be a much harder sell. Unless done right. If a strong writer were to create a character who was gay and he was an activist, and the stories were as much about that as it was about superheroing, that could be a very interesting story… as long as it wasn’t just preachy and annoying, even to those who agreed with the character/writer’s views.
Yep. And also, Benes on BoP, sure, OK, I’ll buy that excuse. Leandro Fernandez (another South American import) drew Tara Chace as an ultra-sexy vixen for the first part of his Queen & Country arc, going by the art standards he was used to and no model sheets for the character. By the end of the arc he had toned it down, and if you look at his work now, you can see that he has adjusted his style. Benes had a pretty long run on BoP, and by the time he was moved up to A-list JLA, he should have had time to make any similar adjustments. The reason editorial didn’t correct him, of course, is because they’re perfectly OK with boobs/butt shots as well, regardless of whether or not its detrimental to the storytelling on the book.
Wouldn’t surprise me if his propensity for cheescake was no small part of why he landed the gig in the first place.
I have to admit, given Ennis’s over-the-top take on *everything*, him having an over-the-top take on sodomy doesn’t really surprise me. I don’t know that it ever bothered me, because Preacher (and indeed, much of Ennis’s work) is in many ways trying to push boundaries and offer up things that might be considered provocative. In the same way, I don’t have a problem with the gay humor of It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia or Kevin Smith’s films, because I’ve never read a “we don’t like teh gays” agenda into it. Instead, it seems to come from a place of “this is taboo, so poking fun at it is funny.” I know that some will disagree with me on that.
That’s just an excuse.
But check out our next podcast, about new characters and why they’ve stuck around (or not) for a much deeper look into this question.
I’m afraid I can’t buy into the notion that comics are dying. Folks have been saying that since *at least* the ’80s. If they’re dying, it’s in the same way that I’m dying. I mean, yeah, it’s going to happen, but everybody dies, so it’s not like it’s great prognosticating or anything.
I’m not entirely sure that’s true anymore. At least, I think it has broadened to “White male nerds, hipsters who wear hats and smoke clove cigarettes and Hollywood actors in a state of arrested development.”
Honestly, and maybe this is my skewed perception, but I think the notion that comics aren’t cool is outdated. Comics culture has thoroughly infected the mainstream, so you’re more likely to get people who say “I don’t read comics, but I read 300 and Watchmen and those are good” or “Comics are for nerds, but I dug the Spider-Man movie.”
Or even “My girlfriend hates comics, but she’s a diehard Fables/Y The Last Man fan.”
Well, sure, but that’s a *vast* over-simplification. Nobody is saying diversity is the cure for all of comics’ ills. But there’s money to be made in diversifying, and speaking more to an audience that’s already there in some small part, and would probably be there in larger part if they could be shown that there’s something for them.
The success of Vertigo trades with women, or manga with younger girls, or indeed graphic novels in bookstores for people who haven’t ever set foot in a comics shop, certainly speaks to the wrongness of the long held “comics are only for boys who love superheroes” theory.
04 Dec 2007 at 8:08 pm
QuoteBy the way, nobody has jumped in to complain about gays in their comics, so I’ve had no reason to post this link from Girl-Wonder.Org, which I found hilarious:
Queer Comics Controversy Bingo
04 Dec 2007 at 8:10 pm
QuoteWell, I wasn’t implying that the industry is going to die tommorrow. I doubt comics will be around in their current form for more than a few decades, but they could still well outlive me or mutate into something new.
I think the stereotype has diminished somewhat, but it’s still plenty prevalent. You only need to watch an episode of the “Big Bang Theory” or see the hacker characters in “Live Free or Die Hard” to see the nerd stereotype is alive and well. While the mainstream tends to buzz about hot new comics films like 300, they tend to forget about them just as quickly for the most part.
Well, it seems to me that you’re changing from the focus of the podcast. I’m not saying that more diversity of genres wouldn’t necessarily benefit the industry, but that isn’t the same thing as the problems with diversity within the superhero genre specifically. That being said Vertigo books don’t exactly burn up the sales charts and many people consider manga to be wholly distinct from regular comics. Weren’t you the one who predicted the demise of the Minx line within a few years?
04 Dec 2007 at 8:36 pm
Quoteoh hell I can complain about gays in comics! NO GAYS in comics untill Rob McCARTHY writes them!
04 Dec 2007 at 8:55 pm
QuoteAh, but see, that goes to my point. In Live Free or Die Hard, from what I can tell, the hacker character is the co-star *and* comic relief. In Big Bang Theory (and Chuck, and others) the nerd is the hero. Being a nerd has become a new version of cool, in some ways.
OK, at least as far as the marketers are concerned… and that’s a pretty important shift.
I guess you’re right, I’m broadening a bit. But I do think that one of the reasons that Vertigo and manga have found success is not just genre, but in their more diverse casts. There are plenty of girls out there who would love to read superhero comics if they didn’t feel so insulted by so many of them. Which is one point of diversity, granted. But I think the argument can be made for other elements of race, etc. More inclusive comics means more new-reader-friendly comics, and that’s something that I truly think we could use.
And Vertigo may not burn up the sales charts in singles, but the trades (especially perennials like Preacher, Sandman and even new ones like Fables and Y) are gangbusters business.
04 Dec 2007 at 11:51 pm
QuoteHey, interesting topic and good listening.
And how about comics readers as a minority? I apologise but comics appeal at a basic level to downtrodden people/kids. Self confessed geeks & nerds, goths, gays, ethnic minorities, whomever. Comics are pretty welcoming.
05 Dec 2007 at 3:50 am
Quotei think any attempt at diversity (yeah, even the ham-fisted ones) are admirable. it shouldn’t be a case of ‘if you can’t do it right don’t do it’ cos yeah, otherwise people will be like ‘OBVIOUSLY dwayne mcduffie’s gonna do black guys’ which is worse than having a thuggish luke cage. at least he’s a better role model than a rapper like the game, and c’mon - his origins were in harlem gangs and imprisonment.
i haven’t read a lot of judd winick so maybe i’d rethink my position.
i went to college with a guy and i showed him a hal jordan cover and he literally said ’since when was green lantern a white guy dude?’, so that happens all over the world!
also, i think it’s interesting to note that you will never have everybody represented no matter how diverse you try to be. if someone is black they are usually african or african american right? but i don’t think that black british guys or australian black people, or caribbeans, or freanch black guys that collect comics mope about being under represented. i’m mixed race and the first mixed race character i’m aware of is luke cage’s baby…but i don’t tend to like characters because of their nationality, ethnicity or age (how many OLD superheroes are there?); sure i get a swell of national pride from a british character kicking ass, or more appropriately ‘arse’, but i know white collectors obsessed with bishop and storm and stuff so the identifying thing isn’t so much of a big deal for me, i think it just adds to realism.
man i’m rambling, sorry if that didn’t make sense.
most of my fav writers are british: neil gaiman, grant morisson, alan moore, warren ellis…is that cos i’m british or because they write extremely good books? olivier coipel is my fav artist right now and i didn’t know he was black until just recently, or just across the channel.
i think diversity is emphasised in the wrong way sometimes and it seems like a weird statement for me to make because i’m not even sure in what way.
supergirl. my beef with supergirl is a whole different thing. i hate derivative characters full stop so supergirl, she-hulk, spider-girl, young avengers, superboy, wonder girl…i just see them all as a waste of space really. that said, if they made patriot captain america, i’d read it but more because he, just like bucky, has a legitimate claim to the flag. not because he’s black and that makes him an aspirational figure, although that is a nice side-effect.
the sexualisation (word?) is crazy. ESPECIALLY mid-fight. like - how? does? that? happen? fanservice is sooooooooo embarassing. how much cooler is that darwyn cooke wonder woman from new frontier, like you have on your boarders here, that’s taller than superman(!) than the adam hughes/ dodsons version (although i think they’re talented artists)
are there any indian superheroes at all? ohmish?
congrats on doing this podcast because it’s hard to cover, as i just proved….
05 Dec 2007 at 6:56 am
QuoteReally enjoying this podcast — I’m in the last few minutes now. I do share the curiosity about the racial/gender makeup of comics readership. Are there numbers available? I don’t see many women in the comics shops, but I’ve had mixed experiences with regard to race. At my normal shop it’s pretty homogeneous and white, but I recently happened to be in Atlanta on a Wednesday and stopped in a shop there… I bet the black/white split in the shop was 50-50 and it was quite busy. However, it was in a racially diverse area. By the way, the lack of discussion about Apollo and Midnighter was surprising — they’ve been praised as good examples of gay characters for whom their sexuality wasn’t their defining characteristic. Re: gay characters written well in indie books, do check out Liz Baillie’s ‘My Brain Hurts.’
Anyway, keep it up. I’m a new iTunes subscriber as of #44, and I’m on board.
05 Dec 2007 at 12:20 pm
QuoteThis is slightly off topic, but you guys were talking about how a lot of the early comic creators were Jewish but never made any Jewish characters. If you look a little closer, you’ll see quite a few Jewish influences in Superman. For example:
His origin story partially resembles the story of Moses and his reed basket: Sent away by his parents to avoid a terrible fate.
His Kryptonian name, Kal-El, which in Hebrew means “vessel of God.” The suffix “el”, meaning “of God” is also found in the name of angels (e.g. Gabriel, Ariel), who are flying humanoid agents of good with superhuman powers.
Jewish spiritual and mystic dimensions to Superman’s superpowers, such as the Golem, the creature formed out of clay who would throw himself off buildings and similar feats to protect the Jews of Prague; and the rabbis who were granted supernatural powers by virtue of their holiness.
His being in the diaspora, his need for an alter ego and to fit in and be useful without being noticed has been seen as an allegory of Jewish assimilation (especially in the 1930s when anti-semitism in the US was rife.)
In the Golden and Silver Age Superman stories, the people of Krypton wear headbands resembling those worn thousands of years ago by the Hebrews.
Great podcast as always, but this was was especially interesting because it tackled a “serious” topic rather than some of your other ones. I’ve enjoyed all your podcasts so far, but if you could mix in some more “real” topics, that would be great.
05 Dec 2007 at 2:34 pm
QuoteHaven’t listened to the podcast, but I was just thinking yesterday how many lesbian couples there are at Marvel/DC when the only gay couples are parodies or tongue-in-cheek analogues (i.e., Vivisector/Phat and Midnighter/Apollo). Yet with the ladies we’ve got Scandal/Knockout, Grace/Thunder, Quasar/Moondragon, Montoya/Batwoman (former couple) and probably others I am forgetting. Montoya was found in bed with a woman at multiple times during 52. Perhaps not direct gay male homophobia as much as a reflection of society as a whole — lesbians can take Portia deRossi to the Oscars, gays are forced to marry Nicole Kidman or Renee Zellweger. Midnighter and Apollo might be a “good example” but wasn’t making them a couple in the 1st place just a big joke by Mark Millar to have Batman banging Superman?
Another recent thought — in Green Lantern Corps, the GL literally come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Yet in the Legion of Super-Heroes, 1000 years later, everyone looks human and is often white. What happened in that last millennium??
jabrams007, I hope you’ve read Chabon’s Adv of Kavalier and Clay…
05 Dec 2007 at 2:52 pm
QuoteI haven’t read it yet, MJH, but it’s definitely near the top of my “Next To Read” list.
05 Dec 2007 at 3:00 pm
QuoteHey guys. Great podcast. You really covered so much on this one and you covered the difficult topic very well. Your views of diversity in comics is relieving. I liked hearing the condemning and solutions of the problem but it would have nice to hear more good examples of diversity done well also. I’m a relatively new comic fan so in these podcasts, I loved finding out about past gems and the pantheon’s recommendations are always a hit with me. I know you guys mentioned some but yea, just wanted to say. My mind is drawing a blank on commentary about diversity and much has been said so I’ll post again if anything comes to mind. Keep up the good work!
05 Dec 2007 at 8:15 pm
Quote>>Another recent thought — in Green Lantern Corps, the GL literally come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Yet in the Legion of Super-Heroes, 1000 years later, everyone looks human and is often white. What happened in that last millennium??
Yeah, the Legion thing’s always bothered me too. I attribute it to the fairly innocent origins of the series, with its almost Archie-esque superteens going to intergalactic malt shops and whatnot between missions, but you’d think they’d push the edges a bit more in modern times, wouldn’t you?
I remember when gossip columnist Rich Johnston was opining on the topic in response to Mark Waid’s recent relaunch, which cast the kids as the ultimate rebels in a passive, ultra-PC future. And Rich’s notion was that the kids should be really hardcore. Tats, piercings, street tough attitudes, etc. It certainly wouldn’t have been the Legion the longtimers knew, but I think I’d like to have seen it. The closest the group came to that level of controversy was during the “five years later” run in the 90s that saw the Legionnaires hitting their 30s during a time of intergalactic economic collapse. It was a risk-taking jump into adulthood for the series, with similar risk-taking for nearly every aspect of the comic. It was to classic Legion what new Battlestar Galactica is to old Galactica. Featured several prominent gay characters and even a story centered around a transgendered character. I have very fond memories of the run, as complicated as it was to follow (lots of experimental storytelling going on), and one of these days I’ll revisit it to see if it holds up.
Speaking of Galactica, by the way, even that disappoints me with its surprisingly whitebread cast. The pasty white future of the Legion of Super-Heroes is prevalent in all the big sci-fi series, even Babylon 5, and at its worst in the various Star Trek Next Gen series. I swear, you’d think the future was gonna be populated with the descendents of Alex P. Keaton to look at that sea of white faces topped by neatly parted, conservative haircuts. It’s particularly galling because sci-fi is supposed to be a daring genre, but about the only time I’ve seen a real sense of cultural mixing in film or TV sci-fi is in the Matrix and its otherwise forgettable sequels.
06 Dec 2007 at 12:55 am
QuoteDeep Space Nine had a fairly diverse cast. The captain was African-American, the doctor was of Indian descent, and the Chief Engineer’s wife was Asian. Not to mention that Worf joined the cast in later seasons and he is played by an African-American actor.
And while most of the cast of Galactica is white, they do feature several non-white actors in prominent roles such as Edward James Olmos, Grace Park, and Kandyse McClure.
06 Dec 2007 at 9:48 pm
Quote07 Dec 2007 at 1:40 am
QuoteI was listening to your podcast the other night and I remember a Comic Convention I attended back in the mid 80’s. Mike Grell was the Guest of Honor and he told an interesting story. Several years before, when he was the artist for the Legion of Superheroes, in one particular issue he was doing a couple panels with crowd scenes, in the which he put black people. When his editor saw the pages, he called Grell into his office and told him he had to take the black people out of the pages. Grell was understandably surprised. The editor explained to him there were no black people in the 30th century, apparently they all moved to the island of Marzal which then promptly disappeared into another dimension. Suitably outraged Grell refused to change pages, so the editor had the colorist, color all the blacks in the crowd scenes white. Shortly after that episode, they introduced Tyroc, I guess someone realized how stupid it really was.
07 Dec 2007 at 7:36 pm
Quote=O
Good…lord!
Did the black folks of the future disappear to a “separate but equal dimension”? Was that the era when George Wallace was editing the Legion?
Fascinating story, Chris. Thanks for posting it.
07 Dec 2007 at 9:06 pm
QuoteBuncha things:
First, thanks for the shout out. It was great meeting the entire Panteon and putting faces with the names of those I didn’t know. Of course, the faces in my head were better looking, but still..
Second, Firestorm darn well could support his own book. His book went over a hundred issues and was at one time DC’s best selling book. A burned out Gerry Conway and a John Ostrander misfire that didn’t understand the appeal of the character put the nails in his coffin. Sometimes a book can’t survive jumping the shark.
I think Dr. Strange ran a good long time, too, didn’t he? I think some characters just get snake bit.
I think new characters are the best bet for introducing diversity into the current universes. I’m not a fan of legacy characters that don’t have legacy built-in to their premise. (Superman isn’t a legacy character, there’s only one him. Green Lantern is a legacy character, as he got his ring passed on to him. One of the reasons I never read the new Firestorm was an interview with the editor where he talked about ‘the mantle of Firestorm’… Firestorm’s a character, not an appointment.) But for characters that do, it’s a fine way to bring some in.
Creating a new character, like Storm or Black Lightning who fit into the universe and take hold with the readers, is the most natural (well, less forced) way to do it.
And, diversity will let you write more interesting characters. I always thought that one of the failings of Star Trek Voyager is that they were scared to write a female captain, so they made her perfect… and boring. She was the smartest person on that ship. And a good captain. And so on. Whereas if they had previously done a bunch of female captains, it would have been more natural to take some chances.
Tony Isabella’s a friend of mine, so I’m biased, but I think one of the reasons he’s so sensitive to Black Lightning’s treatment in comics is that, for the longest time, he was DC’s ONLY prominent black character. So it becomes “You have one black character, and he’s the hero duped by Luthor, he’s the hero with an illegitimate child…” With the new prominence of John Stewart and the new Firestorm, he gets to share the spotlight.
But that’s a larger point in comics and stories in general. If you’ve only got one, or the first, of any category, they kind of have to be the paragon. Jackie Robinson had to be the best player and a good man, period, to carve the way for flawed people like Barry Bonds.
Switching topics, I don’t mind sexy characters and the occasional cheesecake shot, but forcing the story to include it is a bad thing. And I created Amazonia, who wears a skimpier version of the Princess Leia slave girl outfit.
Speaking of which…
Creating a new universe out of whole cloth, it was easy to make Darkblade, the Batman analog, African-American. No one complained or noticed or anything. And I did it because of Jim Cameron, who when he was asked why he wrote so many good black characters, said “I just write characters and think ‘is there any reason he couldn’t be black?” There was no reason to make DB anything, so why not make him non-white?
But, when I had him date Abby’s sister, I very specifically avoided the whole interracial dating thing. First, because that wasn’t a story I wanted to tell. But secondly because I think having an interracial couple, and NOT making a big deal out of it is itself a decently strong statement. Kind of like when Ally McBeal dated Jesse Martin’s character. Maybe the best way to show it’s acceptable is to show it being accepted.
As far as female characters, the same thing. I just try to write strong characters who are interesting, regardless of their gender. I made sure that Abby could carry her own scenes rather than have her exist solely to be a foil to Mark/The Crusader. Now, in a dating-themed coming, gender roles come into play a little bit more there, but you see what I’m saying.
Great topic and great podcast!
08 Dec 2007 at 11:01 am