i agree that x-factor was drawn in unnecessarily, since they only seemed to need madrox, layla and rictor. new x-men i felt needed to be there because of the revenge against the purifiers aspect. made sense. but it seemed like over the 13 issue crossover there were too many battles between teams. in a 13 issue run of a single series there may have only been 2 or 3 major battles. and that’s how messiah should have run. major battle, then withdraw to re-assert themselves and build morale, establish some crap like WHY cyclops wants that baby enough to kill.

the only art really worth looking at was in x-factor, though all the strongest images that i remember in hindsight were ramos’ so maybe he’s not so horrible.

i’m VERY disappointed by messiah complex. it could have been a good story, but they mangled it instead for the purpose of a linewide restructure. lame.

Thanks Dan for answering my question. I think it’s cool you guys answer questions like that rather than ignore the responses.

Thanks. We don’t get ‘em all, but we certainly try.

Though a lot of his ideas were thrown out the window, I actually think it’s possible to bring them back. Yes, the number of mutants - a key point of his theme - has greatly diminished, but we sure still see a lot of mutants, and considering how some of the depowered have recovered their powers, it wouldn’t be too hard to raise the population again.

I’m honestly still hoping that’s what Warren Ellis will do. Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men, to me, felt like it was carrying in the spirit of Morrison, so maybe Ellis will want to continue in that mold. And he’d be far more suited to it.

I’m always on the lookout for older trades. After reading this, I decided it’s finally time to check out some older X-Men, specifically the Claremont era. I checked out the Omnibus vol. 1 but it looks like it is out of print and it stops before the Dark Phoenix Saga. And I always hear how that’s the greatest story… so I tried to find one that includes the DPS.

I think I might go for Essential X-men Vol.o 2. It misses the beginning of Claremont’s run, but it looks like it contains the Dark Phoenix Saga and the beginning of Days of Future Past. Anyone agree? However, it looks like it might be in black and white (no color). What the F@#$? Why would they do that? Is it still worth it? Or does anyone know of any other trades that include the aforementiond Claremont run?

As for the Essentials, I get every one of them that comes out. For the number of books in them, at sixteen bucks, color would be impossible, and honestly, I rarely miss it as I’m reading. Of course, if you want the X-Men Dark Phoenix Saga TP, you could just buy that. I just checked Diamond and it is in stock and available for order at 25 bucks.

You could also track down the 40 Years of X-Men DVD-ROM by GIT, which has every Uncanny issue and Annual up through August of 2005 in PDF for about fifty dollars, but since GIT lost their license from Marvel those are becoming more and more scarce.

I think I might go for Essential X-men Vol. 2. It misses the beginning of Claremont’s run, but it looks like it contains the Dark Phoenix Saga and the beginning of Days of Future Past. Anyone agree? However, it looks like it might be in black and white (no color). What the F@#$? Why would they do that? Is it still worth it? Or does anyone know of any other trades that include the aforementiond Claremont run?

Having listened to the whole thing now, I wish you guys had talked more on where the books are headed, but it was interesting.

Honestly, at this point we’d only seen X-Force, X-Factor and Uncanny, so it’s still hard to judge where they’re going. If all of the other directions they’ve had since, well, since Claremont left, are any indication, where they’re going is “scattershot good issues with general mediocrity leading up to another reboot that throws the baby out with the bathwater.”

Which is to say, I wholeheartedly agree with both you and Gray on this:

Grant Morrison’s run wasn’t perfect, but it did lay down a blueprint for moving the books past Claremont. I’m still stunned that Marvel simply threw that out the window.

I’m still stunned at the way they systematically erased every change he made. Xorn? The Special Class? Magneto being dead? Genosha being wiped out? Mutants as pop culture? The X-Men as global rescue organization? X-Corp? All of it, not just ignored but willfully erased in favor of things that are less interesting.

At this point, the only thing that remains in continuity to show that Morrison’s run ever existed is cat Beast. And most folks aren’t fond of that, so I’m guessing it’ll get undone at some point too.

I own two X-Men runs in hardcover. One is the beginning of the classic Claremont/Byrne X-Men run in Omnibus format (and I’m really hoping there’s a volume two someday) and the other is New X-Men in three hardcovers. Morrison’s run, while flawed, was the best the X-Men have been since Claremont in his prime, and did a great job of advancing the concept without just destroying it at the same time.

So of course, it’s mostly gone now.

What Morrison did was keep it so that mutants were feared and hated. If there are 90 mutants in the world — a world with the likes of Dr. Doom, the Red Skull, Mephisto, Loki, and Galactus — why would people really be afraid of them? But if there are thousands of mutants and a growing population, that implies that humankind is dropping down the totem pole of relevance and power, with extinction around the corner. Well now…that might be a bit frightening and threatening.

I also liked how Morrison (and Quitely) made mutants ugly and freaky. For some reason as I’ve gotten older I’ve prefered the idea that mutants would be like Morrison’s Special Ed class or the Morlocks, rather than these smoking hot babes that reek of sex. At least making them disfigured or weird really sells the idea that they are outsiders.

yes THAT was good point. It often made me gigle a little that Jean greay felt “feared and hated” Also I dont think helped too much that the only one hanging out with humans regularly was Wolverine

I also liked how Morrison (and Quitely) made mutants ugly and freaky. For some reason as I’ve gotten older I’ve prefered the idea that mutants would be like Morrison’s Special Ed class or the Morlocks, rather than these smoking hot babes that reek of sex. At least making them disfigured or weird really sells the idea that they are outsiders.

ok numbered list time
1. Morrison’s X-men had interesting idea but left it unwritable for the next writer. For crying out loud he blew up New York in a Marvel comic!

But they kept Morrison’s take for a little while after her left, wasn’t until Wanda said no more mutants that things REALLY changed. Like Bob said it was a good blueprint that was tossed, and in a way that just caused all sorts of confusion, for both writers and readers, Iceman lost his powers, no wait he was just having a panic attack.

don’t get me wrong I LIKED a lot of Morrison did. Blowing up Genshoa was a good idea. Genosha being the “Mutant as Minorty” pushed WAY too far. UM guys black people in South Africa cant lift buses.
But there was a lot that I did’nt like too.

ok numbered list time
1. Morrison’s X-men had interesting idea but left it unwritable for the next writer. For crying out loud he blew up New York in a Marvel comic!

But they kept Morrison’s take for a while after he left, wasn’t until Wanda said, “no more mutants”, that things REALLY changed.
Like Bob said, it was a good blueprint that was just tossed, and in a way that just caused all sorts of confusion, for both writers and readers, Iceman lost his powers, no wait he was just having a panic attack.

The X-Men are a “never can go back home again” book for me. I was all about the X-Men from age 9 to about 17 in the 80s and early 90s, but I have a really hard time reading them as an adult (as opposed to something like Daredevil, which I loved as a kid and can still read). Aside from the early Whedon issues and a bit of Morisson’s run, it’s all just a bit too nostalgia-based, melodramatic, and convoluted for me. Even this recent Brubaker issue that people are raving about just seems like Claremont-lite to me, rehashing stories, subplots, and settings that were fresh and new during the Reagan administration.

Grant Morrison’s run wasn’t perfect, but it did lay down a blueprint for moving the books past Claremont. I’m still stunned that Marvel simply threw that out the window.

Anyway this isn’t exciting, me, they’d have to do something pretty amazing to regain my interest and this just isn’t it.
As to an iconic X-man, I think you guys are right in that no one character is necessary for the X-men to work. My personal favorite X-man has always been the Beast, though I think he worked better as an Avenger and while I liked much of what Morrison did, his change from ape like to cat like didn’t do anything for me.

I’ve only listened to a third of this podcast and will check out the rest at work tomorrow. But I just wanted to say that “Mr. Sinister” after all these years is still an incredibly stupid name, and I guess one doesn’t always realize this until one hears a podcast in which people say that name aloud with (somewhat) straight faces. In fact that character may have marked the early stages of the drying of Claremont’s well of ideas (though he did have some great stories after it).

Supposedly Claremont originally intended Mr Sinister to be the creation of a child from the orphanage Cyclops came from, which is the reason for some of the goofier aspects of the character. He left the series before he ever got around to that reveal. (Claremont was known for introducing plotlines where the payoff didn’t come for years)

Personally I like it when they simply refer to him as “Sinister”, but then this is the same universe where the greatest villain is named Dr. Doom, so it’s not so much of a stretch anyway.

I won’t pin the high bodycount of Messiah Complex only on Bru, but he is the one who wrote the baby-slaughterin’ opening, I think he’s gotta take at least some of the credit/blame.

You make a very valid point. I think I enjoy his noir stuff so much (Sleeper and Scene of the Crime especially) that I don’t even notice when those same writing styles spill over into other genres.