Comic Pants Podcast #54
Nick Budd, Dave Farabee, Randy Lander and Dan Grendell are back, and this time they’re talking about DC vs. Marvel. Who leans in the direction of one company or the other, either originally or currently, what are the strengths and weaknesses of the companies and their characters, all this and more in this wide-ranging podcast. Plus another installment of Panteon Comics Audio Theatre, featuring New Mutants.
As always, commentary is welcomed and encouraged. Let us know what you thought of the podcast, and if you have suggestions for future podcast topics, leave us a comment or write in to the show!
Use the podcast feed buttons on the sidebar to subscribe, listen via the flash player below, or directly download the MP3 below:
As for myself I started as a Marvel guy in the 90s. With Jim Lee’s X-Men, Spiderman and Deadpool there was an edginess and more real world quality to the books. Dc had a guy with a magic ring and a very powerful but emotionally boring Superman. What won me over to Dc’s camp was Kevin Smith’s Green Arrow. Unlike Winnick’s fail train, Smith’s run took everything from previous runs and told interesting stories with the most liberal archer in comics. From there I enjoyed John’s Green Lantern and I absolutely loved Cooke’s New Frontier. I wasn’t so thrilled for Identity Crisis, but I enjoyed Deathstroke’s beatdown of the JLA. Currently at Marvel I enjoy Ennis’ Punisher and I loved Annihilation Conquest. I just can’t get into most Marvel books because I see Bendis’ gilmore girls type dialogue seeping into the Marvel universe. My favorite Dc title is Booster Gold and the last great trade I read was Morrison’s Seven Soldiers vol. 4. I know you guys read B.P.R.D. but have you ever read Guy Davis’ The Marquis? Finally great podcast as always guys.
03 May 2008 at 2:06 am
QuoteI got started late in comics, around 1989ish and the only book I read was Amazing Spider-Man. I was aware of everything else (Batman, X-Men) from cartoons and other media however, it was not until the Death of Superman thing around 1992, all I read was Spider-Man. The floodgates opened, adding everything from those before mentioned to Sandman.
Over the last several years, my allegiances have swayed more towards DC, about 2 to 4 titles a month.
My current favorite Marvel book is Captain America, with Nova close behind.
My favorite DC book is JSA. Continuity be damned, even my wife reads it and likes it.
03 May 2008 at 12:10 pm
QuoteGreat podcast guys. For me I like both companies…..but if you have to make me choose I am a DC guy. Majority of my favorite characters are their. That doesn’t mean I hate all of marvel characters….but I have to make a list their wouldbe more DC characters. To be honest I think most of my favorite marvel characters would work better in the DCU (fantastic four, Captain America, Dr.Doom). But to be honest what makes me pick DC over marvel is that I think DC’s milestones are way beyond marvels. Watchmen, Dark Knight REturns, Batman year one, DC: The new frontier, Kindgom Come, Long Halloween, Sandman, Preacher, Starman, Fables, Y-the last man, Planetary, All star superman, Superman: Secret Identity, Alan Moores Swamp Thing, Perez and wolfman Teen Titans, and their quite a few others I could name. Now look at marvels milestones. Everything stan and Jack did, Morrisons new xmen, chris claremont and byrnes xmen, Millers Daredevil, Bendis’s Daredevil(I know you guys don’t like it…..but its still considered a mileston….by the way I agree with you guys), marvels, Brubakers Captain america run, Kree-skrull war, Ultimates, Criminal(I know its only like 12 issues in but Its pretty obvious its great), Peter davids hulk run, secret war, infinity gauntlet, Annihilation, and I am sure their are a few I am missing. Now I know on both lists their are things the pantheon disagrees with (I know for a fact Randy isn’t a big fan of either Long halloween or kingdom come) but I am just naming things that I think are considered the pinnacle of both companies. ANyways lets examine both lists. I think many of marvels milestones have aged. Kree-skrull war, secret war, infinity gauntlet, Jim LEes xmen and everything of stan and jacks(I know this is blasphemous, but you can’t honestly say that Stan Lees dialogue is good). Now for the big one…..Claremonts Xmen run…has aged horribly. Sure the art is great but his writing feels so dated. Not to mention that after byrne left his xmen run became pretty redundant. How many cryptic endings to wolverines past were their. How many times did half the xmen get possesed and then other half would fight them. Those are like 5 of their biggest stories that don’t hold up that great. Now look at DC’s list…the first 3 stories I named are often cited as 3 of the greatest comics ever. Same can go for sandman. and I don’t think anyone can say Moores swamp thing run has aged. Now if you look at the other things on the list. I think Kingdom come edges out marvels as a better comic. I think fables, y-the last man, preacher edge out criminal(I am not saying all three are better…..but collectively all three are better then criminal). So I love both companies but when I break it down I think DC has little bit more to offer me. Perhaps I am wrong though…I am sure I am missing alot of defenitive books from both companies and perhaps the pantheon could name a few that even things out. Also I know some may say that some of the comics that I am naming are to premature to be deemed defenitive…….but All star superman, ultimates, Dcthe new frontier and criminal have been hailed collectively by the comic book community and I think they deserved to be named.
Question: Is it just the pantheon that thinks Crisis are a joke or is it a collective opinion in the comic book community? because you guys are the only ones I know saying that.
God I hope someones reads this…..it took so long to write.
03 May 2008 at 3:04 pm
QuoteYou know when I was a kid I was a DC kid. Mostly because my parents got me some Star Trek comics who DC had been licensing at the time. Also all the kids I knew were Marvel kids, so being a non-comformist I became a DC kid. Add to it I had a love of Batman from the animated series.
Nowadays, I can’t be considered either. I don’t read anything from Marvel. The only monthly I get from DC is Jonah Hex, though I’ll probably pick up the third Blue Beetle trade sometime.
Most of my books are either Vertigo or Dark Horse. I’m a big fan of Fables and Jack of Fables and can’t wait for House of Mystery. I also buy Usagi Yojimbo and anything by Mignola so I read a lot Dark Horse.
There are also a few other independent comics like Local and various manga I read.
03 May 2008 at 3:39 pm
QuoteAlways been a Marvel Zombie (and likely always will be). Got started with the X-Men cartoon and read Marvel books exclusively for several years until I started reading DC trades, and didn’t read any DC monthlies until several years after that. Right now my favorite DC books are Action Comics, Green Lantern, and The Brave and the Bold (the latter 2 I’ve only been reading hardcovers of, so I’m way behind). Oddly enough no Marvel book is leaping out at me as my favorite, since all the books I’m buying right now are books I’ve been following for a long time and i tend to favor the shiny new toy. Just got the new Thor hardcover yesterday though, and that’s pretty great so far.
03 May 2008 at 3:42 pm
Quotefave Dc Jonah Hex
Favrote Marvel Thunderbolt with Nova being pretty good too. But as an old Marvel I REALLY dont want to give curreent Marvel a lot of money becuse on some level I resent them. I feel like the Time-warping Devil-deal that undoes Spider-man’s marrige coupled with several things in Civil war that MADE no sense becuse “history does’nt matter (except in illumaniti where rather mutlated history matters a lot) Feels too much a “take or it leave it ANND if Marvel histroy is going to be dictated by who Bendis thinks is a Skrull i’m afraid “Leave it will be my answer
as for why Dc keeps doing Crisis stuff
A it keeps making MONEY
B on SOME level SOMEBODY understand that Sarent Rock Bat-mite and Darksied dont belong in the same universe.
03 May 2008 at 3:53 pm
QuoteOnce Final Crisis was announced, a lot of people on forums I went to - whether or not they liked Infinite Crisis - thought DC had gone crazy.
I mean, seriously…FINAL Crisis? That was was pretty much what everyone’s reaction was
03 May 2008 at 6:20 pm
QuoteOnce Final Crisis was announced, a lot of people on forums I went to - whether or not they liked Infinite Crisis - thought DC had gone crazy.
I mean, seriously…FINAL Crisis? That was was pretty much what everyone’s reaction was
see the forums I went to were pretty much say the opposite. I am not like most people here who are thinking final crisis is going to bad. I am genuinly excited for it….I mean Morrison and J.G jones are to good not to get excited for in my opinion…………….sure infinite crisis wasn’t very good…but I don’t think that means Final crisis is defenitly going to bad. And can honestly here say that they have zero interest in it. You have 2 of the best talents in the industry working on it. ALso huge crossovers don’t necessarily have to be bad after all WWH was very good. Their is another one I could name…..but I am to wimpy to name it because I know people on this board generally hate it.
03 May 2008 at 7:38 pm
Quote*raises hand* I can. I’m not actually making an assumption on its quality, but I really do have no interest whatsoever in Final Crisis right now.
03 May 2008 at 8:08 pm
QuoteFair enough….then I expect that you would not be putting any reviews up for it whatsoever……..I hope that doesn’t sound to snobbish…..All I am trying to do is clarify that zero interests means that you do not read it at all. May I also ask why you have zero interest in it? I know countdown sucked. I am the first to admit that, and so did infinite crisis. So perhaps past events have soured your taste, But with that said House of M, and civil War sucked yet this site readily read WWH. Once again hope I don’t come off rude or anything.
03 May 2008 at 8:27 pm
QuoteNope, not coming off as rude, just curious. First of all, you are apparently under a misapprehension- that we only review books we have interest in. That’s simply not true. I review books every week that I’m not interested in; we all do. I don’t have to be interested in a book personally to read it, see obvious virtues or faults, note art and writing styles, and comment on them. As a reviewer, my goal is to go in to each review with as few preconceptions as possible, and let the issue speak for itself. Whether I am interested or not is really beside the point, honestly. What matters is what I think after actually reading it. In fact, I’ve been turned on to a number of series I had no interest in by doing a review of them and discovering that the book was actually quite cool.
Please take note that I’m talking about lacking interest. I’m not saying that I’m prejudging a book as bad, or assuming it will suck; I’m simply saying that the concept is not one that holds appeal for me initially.
Also, just because I don’t have any interest in a book doesn’t mean I don’t read it. If I’m reviewing it, I certainly read it. Just as likely, I will read something that is a big release because I work in a comic book store, and I will need to know what happened to answer questions from customers.
As to why I’m not interested in Final Crisis, it has more to do with me being tired of major events in the DCU than anything else. I’m not going to assume Final Crisis will be bad because I didn’t like Countdown, or anything like that. It’s simply that the DCU feels like it has been in flux for too long to me as a reader, so more big world-changing events just aren’t grabbing my interest. I’d rather curl up with an individual hero’s title like Wonder Woman or Blue Beetle.
Marvel is reaching the same point, but I’m not quite there yet, perhaps because some of their events were in space and some on Earth; I really can’t say why I haven’t hit exhaustion with Marvel’s events yet, although I think Secret Invasion will about do it.
03 May 2008 at 8:56 pm
QuoteLike pretty much everyone around here, I read both Marvel & DC. However, I know that I’m definitely a Marvel guy. I’ll pick up DC books, but if they’re just not doing it for me I drop them pretty quickly. However, with Marvel, I find myself generally sticking it out through anything (except the X books) finding whatever good points are there and ignoring the bad points. As an example, off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single good part to JMS’s FF run. Yet, I have every issue. For DC, I find that I really want to like those characters, but I just can’t stay into the books that much. I love everything about Superman except for Superman comics. At least, mainstream DCU Superman comics. I love All Star Superman and Busiek’s Secret Identity is one of my all-time favorite Superman stories. With DC, Batman is about the only book that I’ve been able to keep reading for an extended period of time.
Currently, at DC I am enjoying All Star Superman and I like Morrison on Batman. It hasn’t been great, I don’t like Damien, but I like the general mood of his Batman stories. Over at Marvel, I’m enjoying The Incredible Herc, JMS’s Thor (which I’m surprised I like as much as I do given that I was sick of JMS’s ASM and I hated his FF), and Brand New Day. I feel I need to qualify that last one. There are a lot of things, continuity-wise, that irk me about this book. I really, really, really, really hate how One More Day brought about Brand New Day. Yet, if I ignore all the stuff I hate, I find that I enjoy the tone of the book. I like Spider-Man in it and I like the Spider-Man stories they’re telling. I don’t remember what else I wanted to say about this topic, so I’ll just go to a few comments I have about the podcast…
~10 minutes - I loved the McLaughlin-esque Phantom Stranger versus Dr. Strange round table.
~25 minutes - I don’t know if you could do a full hour, but I’d be really into a podcast about formats. Yeah, I’m that kind of anal retentive geek.
~36 minutes - Midlife Crisis - I thought this was hilarious.
~53 minutes - Vertigo versus Max - Really, Vertigo is just such a phenomenal imprint. Max seems like it is basically the mainstream MCU with swears & breasts. Can’t something be done to fix Max? Or should Marvel just abandon that experiment?
Finally, I want to continue to encourage Panteon Comics Audio Theatre. It always makes me laugh out loud. Today’s selection was a really good choice.
03 May 2008 at 9:54 pm
QuoteI’d have to echo the Panteon’s sentiment on Final Crisis. I love Grant Morrison and JG Jones but when I heard their names announced with this title I thought “Great, 2 creators whose work I enjoy on a book I really would prefer to ignore”. I mean, this is the third series with the word “crisis” in its title that DC has released in 3 years and we really are supposed to believe this is the “final” one? I’ll probably pick up the trade solely on the strength of the talent involved but I really can’t bring myself to work up any enthusiasm for this series.
Strangely enough, Marvel has gotten me excited for Secret Invasion despite the fact that I don’t care for New or Mighty Avengers. Go figure.
03 May 2008 at 9:55 pm
Quotehell no don’t abandond Max it’s Marvel’s best hope for NEW charcters
03 May 2008 at 10:42 pm
QuoteI started out as a Marvel guy by way of Transformers and eventually migrated to X-men and New Mutants. Sadly, I think I bought almost the entire Acts of Vengeance crossover at the height of my Marvel fervor. As I got older, I started gravitating more towards DC’s proto-Vertigo stuff like Doom Patrol, Animal Man, and Sandman.
Nowadays, I guess I would categorize myself as a DC guy if I had to pick, but I really don’t have much interest in the mainstream universes of either company. I’m sick of Marvel’s constant hype and spin doctoring and DC can’t seem to put together a high-concept story to save their souls. I probably will end up getting Final Crisis and I have no interest in Secret Invasion, so I guess that says something in DC’s favor.
As far as the companies as a whole, I also feel DC has done a much better job of establishing a wide array of imprints. I think Icon would be a better route for Marvel to go than MAX, but they haven’t done a good job with either imprint really.
03 May 2008 at 11:01 pm
QuoteFair enough. That is a very valid reason.
04 May 2008 at 12:37 am
QuoteHaven’t listened to the podcast just yet, but judging from the comments both here and elsewhere on the ‘net, most people seem to be under the impression that Final Crisis will most closely resemble Infinite Crisis. While that may end up being the case - this could just be a typical mega-crossover *despite* Morrison’s presence - I’m actually betting otherwise.
Based on interviews and advance hype, I get the impression that Final Crisis will feel more like Seven Soldiers than any previous mainstream crossovers. Morrison’s work on large-scale superhero stuff (SS, JLA, DC One Million) has always been pretty damned fantastic, and I’m not sure why people are half-expecting him to drop the ball here - especially with a ringer like J.G. Jones on art.
It makes sense that everyone’s tired of DC’s continuity-heavy “event” storylines; I just think Final Crisis stands a good chance of being a fairly different - and very Morrisonian - beast (fingers crossed), and that’s a possibility that I haven’t seen discussed much.
On the other hand, this could be like that time I got all stoked for Spider-Man 2 and was rewarded with two hours of Peter Parker crying and having sensitive family talks with Aunt May.
04 May 2008 at 1:14 pm
QuotePrepare yourself… one of Randy’s patented mega-replies lies below.
Can I just say how much I love the phrase “Winick’s fail train?”
But yeah, Kevin Smith’s run was pretty good. I have my issues with Smith’s comics writing, but GA was his best stuff, and he had Phil Hester and Ande Parks on art and Matt Wagner on covers… hard not to love it for that alone.
I like, but don’t love, The Marquis. The storytelling is a little muddled at time. But it’s a great high concept, has some genuinely great moments and of course features Davis doing amazing, super-detailed period art.
Wow, that’s actually really interesting. I can definitely see the appeal of JSA, it’s kind of like X-Men or Teen Titans, even if you don’t know the continuity, the rich character ensemble, soap opera elements and history can be pretty endearing.
For me, Johns’s work there has gotten too continuity-intensive, and honestly, the extreme violence/innocents being hurt/heroes failing aspects of the first few issues of the relaunch put me off. Alex Ross, whose writing bores the crap out of me, on co-writing, has kept me from going back.
But I certainly don’t begrudge anyone the interest. It’s not for me, but I am quite certain it’s a well-written team book. It always has been.
I can’t entirely agree with this. The FF equivalent in the DCU is the Challs, and they’re generally pretty boring. I think the FF would only get more boring in the DCU. Also they might fit in better now, but when they were created, the Torch/Thing rivalry and the Reed/Sue relationship were more “realistic” Marvel style… had they been created at DC, they probably wouldn’t have been as dynamic.
Cap is the opposite. Back in the day, he would have been a better fit at the more staid DC, but today, the moral complexity is all that keeps him interesting. If Cap were in the DCU, he’d be like Superman… all too often writers would be writing about how great and inspiring he is, because it was too hard to write stories showing it.
Dr. Doom I wholly disagree with. The tragic villain who can be heroic in some circumstances is a total Marvel character.
I can’t *entirely* disagree with you, but I think you cheated a bit by including Vertigo milestones. Watchmen, Y The Last Man, Fables, Swamp Thing, Hellblazer… these don’t get counted in DC’s accomplishments, in this context. We’re not talking DC as a company, we’re talking DC as a universe. If you want to compare Marvel/DC on the diversity front, DC still wins, hands down, with no indication Marvel’s even going to join the fight.
I mean, MAX vs. Vertigo? That’s not even a fair fight. That’s like Bambi vs. Godzilla.
But if we’re talking about DC Universe vs. Marvel Universe, I think it’s even, maybe giving an edge to Marvel. Watchmen’s out. Dark Knight Returns, All Star Superman and New Frontier could arguably be counted out since they’re out-of-continuity, and stronger for it.
At which point you’ve got Starman, the Perez/Wolfman Teen Titans and a few other bright spots.
Counter that with Marvel’s Claremont/Byrne X-Men, Byrne’s FF, Simonson’s Thor, Stern’s Amazing Spider-Man and Avengers, Morrison’s New X-Men, Brubaker’s Cap, Peter David’s Hulk, Miller’s Daredevil, all of which (OK, maybe excepting Morrison) have been built into the universe and built upon rather than swept away by the latest Crisis, and I think Marvel’s got an easy win with me.
I *totally* disagree that Stan Lee’s work has aged badly. Yeah, there’s some hokiness to some of it. Iron Man is a little weak, for example. But FF and Spider-Man both stand the test of time as thoroughly readable, fun, exciting comics. I’ll put any of Marvel’s Silver Age output up against anything DC produced Pre-Crisis.
I also disagree that Claremont’s X-Men run has aged horribly… if you’re talking about the classic run, which runs from Giant Sized X-Men to X-Men #200. After that, yeah, it starts to have it’s issues, but that’s an argument for creators not sticking around for uber-long runs.
Like I said, I don’t think you can compare Watchmen to the Byrne/Claremont X-Men. I’ll agree that for the most part, DC pwned Marvel throughout the ’90s, inventing Vertigo and having a few weird superhero hits like Hitman and Starman while Marvel was having Clone sagas and Ages of Apocalypse… but DC started slipping when Marvel had its comeback under Quesada and Jemas, and they’ve been on the ropes ever since, each Crisis and Countdown making them seem weaker than the last.
I also disagree that Kingdom Come is better than Marvels, but that’s totally a personal taste thing.
I don’t think Marvel is *always* better than DC. I don’t even think, as a company, that Marvel is better than DC. For Vertigo alone, DC will always have a chance with me. But I do think DC’s superhero universe is at the weakest point it’s been since the original Crisis.
Well, my former partner named his review column after it and bought the $100 slipcased hardcover. So there is some love for it out there. But I don’t think we’re the only ones saying Crisis wasn’t the great milestone others hold it up to be.
Hell, I even bought the original Crisis in trade, and don’t dislike it the way, say, Dave Farabee does. But I also do see how the continuity revision was something of a bad tipping point for DC, and they don’t seem to be tipping back.
Now, if you’re talking about Crises plural, beyond the original Crisis, I think derision is more widespread. Identity Crisis was pretty weakly plotted (that mystery and its resolution make *no* sense) and Infinite Crisis was a mess with a lot of guest artists. I’d be surprised if the percentages in favor of Identity and Infinite Crisis weren’t heavily on the “yeah, those were kinda weak” side. Especially Infinite… I know some folks still have love for Identity Crisis.
Hmm… this might be a good series of sidebar polls.
Well, paragraph breaks would have helped.
But as you can see, I read it. And responded with a doctoral thesis of my own. 
WWH had a disappointing ending.
I think that the odds of Final Crisis being good are super low. The odds of it actually interesting me, even if most folks generally like it, are even lower, given the disconnect I felt with the DC Universe’s general vibe starting with Identity Crisis and getting worse as time wore on.
Dan’s covered the zero interest thing pretty well. I at least want to read the first issue because it’s Morrison and Jones… but keep in mind that because it’s a crossover, it’s also Didio and whatever other DC Universe “suits” are involved in the plotting.
Me too. This was a whim, and now I want to do a whole podcast like this. Maybe a “Live Rumble Pants” type thing with the Panteon deciding the combats.
Hell, *Dan and I* could do an hour on formats, since we’re such format whores. I think this podcast has a better than even chance of happening.
They should either abandon it or completely relaunch it with an eye towards different *genres*, not just boobies and swears. MAX is a joke, and only the general goodness of Ennis’s Punisher keeps it afloat at all.
Rob, I don’t think MAX is creating any new characters. They’re just re-inventing old ones, usually badly. Foolkiller? Man-Thing? Zombie? Phantom Eagle? Have they introduced even one new character in the MAX imprint?
Here’s the thing… I don’t think you’re wrong, but if Final Crisis is like Seven Soldiers, it’s going to flop huge.
Seven Soldiers was ambitious, and in small doses, fantastic. As an overall story? I thought it was pretty weak. Same with most of Morrison’s big stuff. JLA, DC One Million both have great ideas, but I can’t overlook that structurally, his stories often falter and have cheesy (anyone remember that they took out the Martians by asking them for a concert encore, basically?) endings or weird, incomprehensible endings.
Final Crisis needs to have, above anything else, a kickass ending that will reinvigorate the direction of the DCU. Kickass endings are not Morrison’s strong point.
I’m afraid you’d better prepare yourself for this, yes.
But I am glad to hear *somebody* else who doesn’t think Spidey 2 was the best superhero movie until Iron Man came along. Spidey 2 is deeply, deeply flawed and self-indulgent on Sam Raimi’s part. To hear so many people shocked when I tell them Iron Man is my favorite superhero movie to date, and then say “Even better than Spider-Man 2?” just saddens me.
Yes, it’s better than Spider-Man 2. And X-Men 3. Is that the bar we’re aiming to cross, really?
Oh, and because it’s somewhat relevant to the discussion (and also completely awesome), here is a link to Paul O’Brien’s savaging of DC Universe Zero, which I completely agree with.
And here is a link to something else.
04 May 2008 at 2:33 pm
QuoteAgreed, although I thought the whacked-out ending of Seven Soldiers worked for that story. I’m betting that FC will have a far more concrete ending, mostly due to - as you mentioned above - the editorial directives that are necessarily driving this thing. Best case scenario: the “point” of FC is a good one, Morrison avoids the cheese, and nails the landing for the first time since … what, Animal Man?
So yeah, okay, maybe it won’t work out.
Totally - it’s a “good” superhero movie, but all the fanboy love - much less all the “not just a great comic book movie, but a great movie” quotes from mainstream critics - was kind of shocking.
Besides, we all know there’s only one candidate for “best superhero movie.”
Y’know, that second link is especially cruel when the first link doesn’t even work.
04 May 2008 at 3:26 pm
QuoteWe both kinda interrupreted the questions to our liking. I looked at both as companies, and you looked at whats in continuity. For the record wouldn’t sandman, Swamp thing, and Hellblazer all be in continuity. I for sure know Swamp Thing is.
As for Captain America…wasn’t he exactly what Marvels superman. People just writing how great he was instaed of actually showing it. That is until Brubaker took over for cap. But aside from that when was the last time cap was great………when Waid was writing him…which was like only 15 issues or something. I think it is safe to say both characters have been mishandled. As for the moral complexity I would have to agree that captain america has that, but I don’t think that is something unique to the marvel U.
As for the FF, at the time of their creation ya they would not have been great at DC, but what I ment is that the whimsical nature of their comic would work better in the DCU. I mean things that Reed RIchard creates are pretty ludicrous. To me YOung Heros in love, Hitman, Demattis and Giffen JLA, all are not to much of stretch from the FF.
As for Doom a tragic villain who can be heroic…well Black Adam seems to fit that(admittedly only in recent years). Harvey Dent can often be painted that way as well. Aside from Magneto…I cann’t really think of any characters like that from either universe….and I don’t think Emma and the Juggernaut(He did join the xmen right?) should count.
I also know you have great love for Sterns spidreman randy….but is it really considered a milestone. I don’t really see it brought up much. Everything I named as a milestone in my opinion seems to be highly regarded. I wasn’t just naming things I loved.
I agree with you that both Stan Lees FF and SPiderman have stood the test of time, but his iron man, Daredevil, hulk, xmen, and silver surfur are not that great. but I have trouble reading lots of things from that era. Something about silver age dialogue is just real annoying to me.
As for claremonts stuff…..I stand by what I say. I like byrnes art, but claremonts dialogue is just to much for me. He is needlessly wordy, and seems to have no faith in his artist.
also if you like marvels better then Kingdom come thats fine…but I was just trying to say that Kingdom come is more highely regarded. I don’t necessarily like one better then the other.
But I agree with you that I don’t think either company beats the other all the time. Its a swinging pendulum….I just picked DC because when I think about it I think I like them a little more. Like you I agree that marvels silver age stuff is was way better then DCs.
I am also not going to lie……..I like identity crisis…….Infinite sucked….but I still enjoyed what meltzer and morales did. I don’t think its as bad as you guys say it is….I even recall Randy from your fourthrail days that you said it had alot of passion behind it…but that you just didn’t like the direction the dcu was goin and that it did not have a mature readers tag on it. None the less I recall you giving it 1/10……..meaning you really hated it.
Your phantom stranger vs Doctor Strange debate got me thinking……..has phantom stranger ever fought…………has he ever doen anything. I think he has a cool costume…but outside from an appearance in byrnes superman…I don’t think I have ever actually seen him do anything. Alll he does is just warn people and then the people openly reject his advice. He might as well just not say anything, because nobody wants to listen to him.
04 May 2008 at 4:03 pm
QuoteI gotta ask why is Iron man your favorite superhero movie? Don’t get me wrong I loved it and I am defenilty going to buy it, but I would say its a pretty flawed movie as well. While I agree that Spiderman 2 is flawed….I don’t think you can say its a bad movie. Sure Peter Parker cries way more and doesn’t say any whitty things….but its still a good movie……not the best mind you. For me that is Superman: The movie or Batman Begins(which I understand you have problems with as well).
04 May 2008 at 4:15 pm
QuoteI just wanted to say, JSA is not a dark book anymore. The first couple of issues, yeah. But right now, it’s literally Norman Rockwell on Superheroes. There are superheroes riding fire trucks. Throwing pancake fundraisers. It’s absurdly wholesome at times.
And Kingdom Come Superman! What a heavily burdened yet morally strong character. He really represents the best in the Superman character.
04 May 2008 at 4:44 pm
Quotemy review of Dc ZERO is up at http://www.howcomics.com
warnig there may be type-o’s
04 May 2008 at 5:17 pm
QuoteIron Man is absolutely my favorite Marvel superhero movie as well. I’m not sure if I’d put it above the Incredibles and…I’m sorry…but just for personal tastes I might even still like Mystery Men more
But it is definitely the one Marvel movie that I believe has hit the mark better than any past Marvel movie.
I’m one of those who actually liked FF because of all the fannish touches thrown in, but I do agree that it really wasn’t that good a movie; they lacked the energy and intensity a superhero movie should have. I liked the Spider-Man movies and loved the energy those had, and thought the character work was pretty good, but they took themselves way too seriously - it’s almost as though Raimi thought all that Peter/MJ dialogue was good, and Bendis he ain’t.
Iron Man, I think, was the perfect balance of the two. Tons of fannish elements, but managing to have that raw adrenaline that makes the movie fun, some interesting moral quandaries thrown in but never taking themselves too seriously.
04 May 2008 at 7:00 pm